Introduction
Methods
Participant Selection and Recruitment
TYPE | SEX | AGE | EDUCATIONAL LEVEL* |
---|---|---|---|
3/5 = 20 ≤ 30 years old | |||
FG-Lay0 | 2/5 male | 0/5 = 30 ≤ 40 years old | 2/5 ≤ MBO |
(Pilot) | 3/5 female | 0/5 = 40 ≤ 50 years old | 2/5 = HBO |
(n=5) | 1/5 = 50 ≤ 60 years old | 1/5 ≥ WO | |
1/5 ≥ 60 years old | |||
3/10 = 20 ≤ 30 years old | |||
FG-Lay1 | 6/10 male | 2/10 = 30 ≤ 40 years old | 6/10 ≤ MBO |
(n=10) | 4/10 female | 1/10 = 40 ≤ 50 years old | 2/10 = HBO |
1/10 = 50 ≤ 60 years old | 2/10 ≥ WO | ||
3/10 ≥ 60 years old | |||
1/11 = 20 ≤ 30 years old | |||
FG-Lay2 | 5/11 male | 4/11 = 30 ≤ 40 years old | 5/11 ≤ MBO |
(n=11) | 6/11 female | 2/11 = 40 ≤ 50 years old | 2/11 = HBO |
0/11 = 50 ≤ 60 years old | 4/11 ≥ WO | ||
4/11 ≥ 60 years old | |||
7/26 = 20 ≤ 30 years old | |||
TOTAL | 13/26 male | 6/26 = 30 ≤ 40 years old | 13/26 ≤ MBO |
(n=26) | 13/26 female | 3/26 = 40 ≤ 50 years old | 6/26 = HBO |
2/26 = 50 ≤ 60 years old | 7/26 ≥ WO | ||
8/26 ≥ 60 years old |
TYPE | SEX | AGE | EXPERTISE |
---|---|---|---|
FG-Prof | 2/7 male | 0/7 = 20 ≤ 30 years old | 4/7 health ethics |
(n=7) | 5/7 female | 1/7 = 30 ≤ 40 years old | 3/7 health law |
3/7 = 40 ≤ 50 years old | |||
1/7 = 50 ≤ 60 years old | |||
2/7 ≥ 60 years old |
Research Design and Data Collection
Data Analysis
Results
Nr. | Group | Subtheme | Category | Translated Quote | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Theme I: Degrees of Confidence in hELS-Research | |||||
1 | Lay0 | Positive Perspectives (about) | The Utility of Research | R04: “Suppose it is ... so that we do not have to test on animals, I think it's good.” | |
2 | Lay1 | R05: “Yes. For me, it also goes more towards the [positive image]. ... I think it is very nice, so to speak ... that something like this can be developed. So I would rather go towards the [positive] picture, indeed.” | |||
3 | Lay2 | R04: “For example, I am thirty and my fertility is declining more and more after my thirtieth birthday. But society has also changed so much that I am no longer settled at the age of 22 and have a partner with whom I have a house and will stay with it for the rest of my life, for example. So that, when you put it that way, I think it is quite a tricky issue. That I think, yes, because of how our society is organized, my life has turned out in such a way that I cannot or do not want to start having children in my most fertile period, so to speak. So then I think ... a method like this, IVF, offers a very nice solution for this situation.” | |||
4 | Prof | R02: “Well, […] with the foreknowledge that I have of course, I'm [leaning] a little more toward that [positive image] because I do indeed see it as an opportunity to do embryo research at an early stage of development without having to use embryos that maybe were once intended for reproduction or that could be used for that purpose.” | |||
5 | Lay1 | The Researchers | R10: “Well, I think [the] left picture applies ... I actually think [that] everyone professionally involved in this has good intentions [and] that no one wants to abuse the techniques.” | ||
6 | Lay2 | R02: "But I think most scientists, in principle, want the best for ... humanity or, you know, do their work from a positive motivation." | |||
7 | Prof | R05: "So the view I have of science is not [one] where you have to be incredibly wary that [scientists] are going to do all sorts of crazy things that we don't want [them to do]." | |||
8 | Prof | The Governance of Research | R05: "But of course you always ... have a monitoring system in science and, actually, my positive view of this slide had also to do with that. That ... I have quite a lot of confidence in that [system]." | ||
9 | Lay0 | Negative Perspectives (about) | The Utility of Research | R01: "No, I stopped that. I could have [had] it, but I did not want it myself. I found it too intense. And I think it is also a bit like ... it comes as it comes. So, it is also fate, right? ... I always say [and] I'm not religious but some things are apparently good for something." | |
10 | R10: “But if it doesn't work out, you have to accept that, no matter how difficult that is. You can also adopt children." | ||||
11 | Lay1 | R03: "I also think there [is] a difference ... whether it [is] about ... saving human lives, instead of making human lives." | |||
12 | Lay2 | R01: "That documentary series, ‘Beter dan God’, of why people always have to have a nose job … or a-this correction or a-that correction. At some point, accept your body as it is." | |||
13 | Lay1 | The Researchers | R03: "[Suppose] that you have a complete embryo that can then grow into a human being, I find that ... scary. Because then there only needs to be one such Frankenstein and things go wrong. So we can make very good agreements about that, but [that possibility alone] is already nerve-wracking, I think." | ||
14 | R04: "Three glasses of wine is good and the other researcher says you shouldn't drink wine at all. How far does the researcher’s knowledge go in this area? Yes, science is not always ... I don't know, you know." | ||||
15 | Lay2 | R01: "And we're focusing on the Netherlands right now, whereas I think, if you look globally, there are plenty of regimens that, if they could implant certain things into human brains, would benefit from that. [I] think it's a bit silly to refer to doctor Mengele ... but that's the nightmarish sight that [hELS-research] arouses in me." | |||
16 | Prof | R05: “[Jiankui] He is, of course, the example in another field, but whom has nevertheless just gone ahead and actually done something … that the entire international community condemns, right? So, it can happen. ... That is something we need to consider.” | |||
17 | Lay1 | The Governance of Research (due to) | Resignation | R08: “Yeah, you can’t stop technology anyway.” | |
18 | Lay2 | R01: “That is, of course, you cannot get a grip.” | |||
19 | Lay2 | Cynicism | R01: “I'm suspicious anyway. What is it called? Pink Floyd has a nice song in which Roger Waters sings, "Mother, shall I trust the government?" I do not know if you have ever been to a Pink Floyd or Roger Waters concert, […] there are those giant screens with "never trust the government". And that's part of it for me.” | ||
20 | Lay2 | Lagging behind | R01: “But ... that confirms to me the image of, yes, give science the time and resources and they will experiment away, to put it bluntly. … I want to formulate it more neutrally. But you are going to give science means without [having] criteria or legislation beforehand. So, as a legislator, you are always lagging behind the facts.” | ||
21 | Prof | R01: “You make ... a law, an Embryo law ... and then all of a sudden comes this, and then you’re simply lagging behind events. And how should you then deal with it? Actually, this topic [hELS-research] illustrates it already.” | |||
22 | Lay2 | Shifting norms | R07: “I think it's very… Well, on the one hand, it can be very good to use [hELS] ... but on the other hand, a slippery slope.” | ||
23 | Prof | International arrangements | R07: “What I find difficult ... is that I do think that [hELS-research] is of course something that happens internationally. So I think that is really very complex. … We can do all sorts of things in our small country and adjust our Embryos Act ... but I think yes, this really presupposes some kind of arrangement on an international level and also governance on an international level.” | ||
24 | Lay2 | Commercial use | R02: “And I think there's a handful of people who invest in [hELS-research] and who want to make power [and] money out of that and ... who don't really care much for ethics. And I think that ... that's the problem.” | ||
25 | R06: “Yes, especially that ‘determining’. Because in other circumstances I can imagine that [hELS-research] could have a function in commerce.” | ||||
26 | Prof | R05: “That is exactly ... what I did not say but do realize, [namely] that if I have concerns about anything … it is the role of commercial parties and the commodification of human tissue”. | |||
27 | Lay1 | Reproductive use | R03: "[Suppose] that you have a complete embryo that can then grow into a human being, I find that ... scary. … Well, yes, if [it] falls into the wrong hands. That would... Yeah, you see it in movies [like ‘The Boys of Brazil’] sometimes, to be able to train people … or something like that.” | ||
28 | R09: “I have to say that I find the idea of a clone or fully-grown [hELS] odd, but not exactly scary, because I don’t really know … why it would be bad. I think it's strange, but … I don't find it scary per se.” | ||||
29 | Lay2 | R01: “I thought about cloning. If that were to be [possible], that people could be cloned with [hELS], then you really go in the direction of the [negative] image.” | |||
30 | R07: “Yes, there is a crux for me. I have been thinking about … what does that mean for me? If [a hELS] could actually become a human being? ... Then I'm like ... that [is] just so different, that it doesn't feel ethically right to me.” | ||||
31 | Prof | R07: “The only real concern I would have is that cloning might be coming very close. And I have some doubts about that, [about] whether that it is a good idea.” | |||
32 | Lay1 | Ambivalent Perspectives (due to) | The moral indeterminateness of research | R02: “Yes, it seems to me an advocate and an opponent … The female [an] advocate and that male an opponent.” | |
33 | R03: “For me there is a type of slider between [the positive and negative image], so to speak. So [it is] not [just] one or the other. ... And for me it leans towards that pretty lady on the [positive] image. But there is no rose without a thorn.” | ||||
34 | Prof | R01: “I actually see it as ... two sides of one and the same coin. Science brings good things, but [it] also brings things that are not good. … And a positive effect can simultaneously be a negative effect ... and vice versa. [So] maybe it is just [a matter of] ... from which perspective you look at it, whether something is right or wrong, isn't it? Because that also presupposes a kind of moral starting point.” | |||
35 | Lay0 | Comparative knowledge or lack thereof | R01: “Doubt. Good and bad, but that is more because you do not know what it means. 'Synthetic' makes me think ‘that's not real’. On the other hand, as I read [the information letter], those embryo-like structures are created from, say, my cells. So is it really life after all? Or is it … something that, say, has no sentience?” | ||
36 | Lay1 | R06: “Yes, I would lean towards the [positive] image, but that is more because it there is something naive and uninformed about it. So, for me, that image indicates that we are working on something but that we have virtually no idea what the implications are.” | |||
37 | R07: “Well, maybe I can add to it. Because I think I have a bit of the same thought. I also lean towards the [positive] image. But that's more because I don't know much about this subject. And my outlook on it is [that] I am in favour of science. So I would say, do as much research as possible. But yeah, I don't know much about it. So I don't know if that's a valid reason.” | ||||
38 | Prof | R03: “… the most relevant issue is, I think, that we need to make a strong case that these kind of things can contribute a lot, or sufficiently, to what we are not able to do yet, right? That there are no alternatives for it that may arouse less of an image of science as a futuristic endeavour …” | |||
39 | R06: “Are there possible alternatives conceivable? I also just immediately started thinking, how does this relate to organoid research, for example? Because I think you could also achieve some of the aims with organoids …” | ||||
Theme II: Requirements for Confidence in hELS-Research | |||||
40 | Lay0 | The Need for Regulation | R02: “ ... I think that those human embryo-like structures should definitely also be regulated by law. Not in the same way as human embryos, I think. Or maybe [in the same way, even though] I don't think so. Because now it does not fall under the law, so you can do anything with it. And assuming that [ELS] may become viable, that [they] may develop sentience, et cetera, it should be regulated. Because otherwise you will end up running into problems.” | ||
41 | Lay2 | R06: “Absolutely. In order to guarantee that [hELS-research] stays within certain limits; must stay within limits.” | |||
42 | R04: “And strict regulation.” | ||||
43 | R07: “Yeah. And a new category.” | ||||
44 | R09: “Being careful with life.” | ||||
45 | Prof | R01: “Well, I'd rather, at least provisionally, see some kind of separate protection regime. I think the idea of it being unprotected, is indigestible. Because that means that you are actually also creating the possibility for scientists to endlessly experiment with it. And maybe eventually make a human being out it. […] So you have to contain it somehow. It could be that at a certain point we get to a situation in which we have to say [that ELS] are viable. Well, then it automatically falls under the Embryos Act. […] [But] if the consequence of the definition in the Dutch Embryos Act is that [ELS] completely fall outside of it, then I think that is an undesirable situation. Because I think there should also be some kind of protection afforded to it. Even if only in the context of surveillance by Medical Ethics Committees, [informed] consent, and such-like queries.” | |||
46 | Lay2 | Requirements for Regulation | Limit Research Aims | R08: “Yes. I would like to add, I think it really depends on how [hELS-research] is used.” | |
47 | Lay1 | Commercial aims | R10: “If [hELS-research is used] for commercial purposes, then it is objectionable. But if it can help people and spare suffering ... Yes, then I think the aim is justified.” | ||
48 | Lay2 | R03: “Look, people are curious, I think- Right, I assume science has [our] best interests at heart, in the end. But I see it differently for commerce.” | |||
49 | R11: “Especially if you look at the current behaviour of the pharmaceutical industry.” | ||||
50 | Lay0 | Eugenic aims | R01: “ ... because you are not sure, but also perhaps fear, the danger that they can achieve that. I find that very scary. And then I would say no, we just won’t do it. Because ... something completely different, just like Hitler, right? He also only wanted blonde and blue eyes. And he wanted to create the perfect race. Do we want to go there? That kind of stuff can happen, right? Like you were saying, you already have people saying … ‘I want a donor and I want that person to be educated and have dark hair and blue eyes.’ … I do not know. It [would be] such a perfect, no fun world.” | ||
51 | Lay1 | R01: “That you are not going to use [hELS research] to have a boy [or] girl or brown [or] blue eyes or hair colour. Only for, yes, medical purposes that are important. Health. That you might be able to bypass hereditary diseases.” | |||
52 | Prof | Added value | R03: “ ... so I think that the argument … that this is really something that contributes to the societal interest, … is, pragmatically speaking, important in [avoiding] depictions of science as the mad scientist”. | ||
53 | R05: “No, but still, even if you were not to build [suicide genes] in, I still think preference should be for those embryo-like structures. Because you do not need oocyte donors for that. … Look, if you can simply make those embryo-like structures from a bit of material you already have, then you don't have to ask me which is preferable.” | ||||
54 | Lay1 | Limit Developmental Features | R10: “I think [regulation] is very important for [research with] embryos. For embryo-like structures, it depends on how they develop. If they remain a cluster of stem cells, then I think it is less important than if that cluster starts developing lungs by itself and continues to develop itself into a mini person. For me, that’s an important distinction.” | ||
55 | Lay1 | Heart(beat) | R05: “Well, if it is not the case in an embryo-like structure that … the heart starts beating, then you can do research for longer [periods of time]. But the moment that heart starts forming, I say until there and no further. … Then it is life. … If my heart stops [beating], my life is over.” | ||
56 | Lay0 | Pain receptors | R01: “ … if a nervous system comes into being, then we get back to that sense of maybe it can feel something … Then I would say, for me, that is the limit.” | ||
57 | Lay2 | R02: “Yes. I think ethics depends on [the ability to feel]. We do not need to talk about … bricks. Because bricks are bricks, right? But the moment a live [being] feels something, you can start to wonder how you should deal with it.” | |||
58 | R07: “I just said, at one month [of development] there is no brain development. [So] I would not have a problem with it.” | ||||
59 | Lay0 | Developmental potential | R01: “So, I think [that] that is really a line, also in the law … like, [hELS] should not be able to grow into a … human thing. … there must be that limit.” | ||
60 | Lay1 | R09: “I also think—we also have that with those embryo-like structures, don’t we?—that it depends on … what you let it grow into, what it will become. That that is very important. Is it going to be an embryo or is it going to be something that looks like it but that cannot really develop into [a human being]?” | |||
61 | Prof | R01: “But if it cannot become a human being, then I still think that that embryo, or that structure, needs a certain amount of protection.” | |||
62 | R04: “Look, as long as [hELS] cannot yet grow into a human being, I think that is of a different order than when that [is possible]. For me, there really is a bit of a limit, whether you can ... develop those embryo-like structures ... to such an extent that they [...] could grow into a human being. For me, [that is where] there is a kind of breaking point.” | ||||
63 | R07: “No, the entity is different as far as I'm concerned because I attach great importance to the moral bearing of that potential to develop [into a human being]. ... And if that’s not there at all, then I wonder: what exactly are you protecting? Then [ELS] are merely cells, and you are definitely allowed to do with it as you please.” | ||||
64 | Lay1 | Precaution | R03: “No, no, because then ... it does become a human being, [but] only to a certain extent. Until a certain age.” | ||
65 | Prof | R07: “Well, then you have to take that into account now and say, then we're going err on the safe side of safety and not give [hELS-research] a kind of cart blanche under the motto 'it's not an embryo'. Then you have to say ... we will set similar requirements. From which requirement numero uno is that you do not let it grow [a human being].” | |||
66 | Lay0 | Involve the Public | R01: “We get more insight [into hELS-research] and [researchers] get more insight into how people think about it. What they find of it.” | ||
67 | R03: “Yes, sometimes it is good to involve the public. That way you can also get other ideas, other perspectives.” | ||||
68 | R08: “Yes, I think it is actually important that society has an opinion about this. I mean, assuming that there will be [legislation for hELS-research], that [legislation] must of course also be a kind of reflection of what society thinks. … So I think it is important that [the public] feel[s] heard.” | ||||
69 | Lay1 | R09: “Inform people more about what [hELS-research] actually is, what it … entails.” | |||
70 | Prof | R01: “Because … we do not know what exactly constitutes a good development. … I think we have no choice but to societally determine what that development should be. And that is what we then call a good development.” | |||
71 | R06: “ ... that is a discussion … you also want to have it on a societal level. That [discussion] is not something you want to leave up to individual scientist alone.” |